Curse

pinkeyflower · Apr 21, 2011, 08:19 AM // 08:19

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Originally Posted by FoxBat

And I've obs'd top 100 playing honor balanced roll #800 on triple derv. Doesn't mean anything.

#800 is terrible; your rating is below your starting one and you've most probably lost more matches than you've won.

Anyway, player skill barely has anything to do with FA unless we are talking about the very extremes of the human mind. It is much easier to spam enchantments, heals, defensive spirits, tank than to to use teamwork to break those barriers.

Elnino · Apr 21, 2011, 08:38 AM // 08:38

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Originally Posted by FoxBat

All of that amber running can be done fine by healers that use dash. Kurzick can play something other than healer but they are just gimping themselves in doing so. The more defense you have the better, as killing luxons is not ever a required part of the mission. In other formats, excessive defense earns you draws or very slow defeats. In FA, it wins.

But that's just the nature of FA. One side defending and one side attacking. IMO, that's the imbalance in Fort Aspenwood. Everything else is just a product of this underlying imbalance. You can't have a balanced format if each side requires a completely different playstyle.

I actually wouldn't mind it if the luxons had their own version of Gunther in the map and the kurzicks killing it would mean victory. Of course, a similar amount of defense would be needed for the NPC. This way both sides would have to play offensively and defensively, which is a step towards a balanced format. (lol this sounds like GvG)

Sk8tborderx · Apr 21, 2011, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

I actually wouldn't mind it if the luxons had their own version of Gunther in the map and the kurzicks killing it would mean victory. Of course, a similar amount of defense would be needed for the NPC. This way both sides would have to play offensively and defensively, which is a step towards a balanced format. (lol this sounds like GvG)

If you do that then you also need to change the map layout, NPC placement, teleport locations, add gates for the Luxon side, etc. You would also have to remove the timer.

The only way to really make it balanced is to completely revamp FA.

Missing HB · Apr 21, 2011, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkeyflower

#800 is terrible; your rating is below your starting one and you've most probably lost more matches than you've won.

You can't judge someone #800 at this point of the game. For sure it's not regular and top GvG'er , but whether it's r12 HA'ers or total PvE'rs , both would get rolled by smurfs or good GvG'ers ( what you only face in GvG nowadays), whereas r12 HA'ers would probably beat PvE'rs.....

Anyway back on topic , that's again due to the new skills that appeared along years and the " zero update " that FA had... Thus , today it's an other place where playing melee is close to useless on both sides

Artisan Archer · Apr 21, 2011, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Once you're in the gunther area, don't kill the monks, that makes them respawn with full energy. Just train on gunter and whatever is killing your turtles. It's impossible for any kind of team to keep up if there's 2 turtles pumping attacks on the gunther pit. Monks will run out of energy and you can kill gunther.

The map is indeed unbalanced, but due to random teams tis still quiet playable. FA and JQ were not ment to be high level pvp so you should not try playing it like it is.

@HB

Not really, if you're a sin and you can sneak through the gate when kurzicks are running amber and take out a gatekeeper you're quite useful.

Lhim · Apr 21, 2011, 01:09 PM // 13:09

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Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Remember, don't feed the trolls

No trolling, I'm dead serious actually.

RedStar · Apr 21, 2011, 01:19 PM // 13:19

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It's impossible for any kind of team to keep up if there's 2 turtles pumping attacks on the gunther pit. Monks will run out of energy and you can kill gunther.

The turtles get more distracted than a 6 year old...All it takes is someone taking the portal, making him appear right behind them and then back up a little to avoid the warriors. The turtles will try to kill him. And because the turtles are also slow...by the time he gets up, the turtles would use on shot, or none.
Also the turtles are able to hit Gunther and the area to his left only if they are really at the green gates, and once again it's quite easy to keep them from getting there.

Painbringer · Apr 21, 2011, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Turtles should target NPC's Only. They can use there close combat defenses but when it comes to attacking they should be focused. Let the warriors worry about the players attacking them from a distance. Another thing is why do warrriors have to run back to the turtle to change targets??? Attack kill attack kill is all they need to know. No need to check on Wilber the Turdle Tard. Get out there and make some noise

pin · Apr 21, 2011, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

But that's just the nature of FA. One side defending and one side attacking. IMO, that's the imbalance in Fort Aspenwood. Everything else is just a product of this underlying imbalance. You can't have a balanced format if each side requires a completely different playstyle.

Pretty much what I have thought about the map. Defenders have a basic advantage in that they can simply delay the attackers and win by stalemate. The only good thing about FA is that you can play test builds or skills, you can get a good idea of how they work and some of the weaknesses they have.

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Once you're in the gunther area, don't kill the monks, that makes them respawn with full energy.

I've monked on the Kurz side and to avoid this you work your way to the door as you heal. When you run out of energy run to the luxon warriors by the turtles and you die instantly.

Miteshu · Apr 21, 2011, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Unbalanced?

Turtles does weak DPS. Sure, 200 damage may sound a big deal, but a single WoH makes turtle's attack useless.

Artisan Archer · Apr 21, 2011, 04:23 PM // 16:23

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Originally Posted by Miteshu

Unbalanced?

Turtles does weak DPS. Sure, 200 damage may sound a big deal, but a single WoH makes turtle's attack useless.

Pretty sure turtle damage is AoE and WoH is single target.

RedStar · Apr 21, 2011, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Maybe but the recharge is 10 and the cast time 3. You have the time to cast WoH almost 4 times. But why would cast WoH 4 times for a siege attack ? You need it twice : for you and Gunther. Plus it's not like a monk only has 1 healing skill.

Of course I'm not going to say that the turtle is useless. It can kill people if they aren't healed by a monk...and if you manage to get 2 of them inside the green gate, then yes you might be able to put a lot of pressure. But they get easily distracted...

Azazello · Apr 21, 2011, 06:22 PM // 18:22

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Originally Posted by Lhim

Your team must really suck if you lose as a Kurzick at Fort Aspenwood.

That should have been /thread. It's so easy as Kurzick it's retarded. I don't think anyone could possibly post a losing record on defense.

Elnino · Apr 21, 2011, 10:55 PM // 22:55

There is a very easy way to combat monks if you are playing on the luxon side . . . Dom Mesmers. You can pretty much shutdown a monk completely just by maintaining diversion and shame on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Anyway back on topic , that's again due to the new skills that appeared along years and the " zero update " that FA had... Thus , today it's an other place where playing melee is close to useless on both sides

Luxon side: Once you're in the green, melees are amazing.
Kurzick side: Stopping people from getting to green is one of the primary objectives, and what stops people from moving? Oh yea, knockdowns.

Just adding stuff to the awesomeness that is melees

Chasing Squirrels · Apr 21, 2011, 11:59 PM // 23:59

I have played over 500 FA matchs on both side and would have to say it is harder for luxons especially when 3/4 of the time the turtle gets stuck which is a huge disadvantage especially when the turtle siege attack does aoe damage and removes 1 enchant and a-net refuses to fix this. I honestly don't get why they can't fix the turtle getting stuck but they have time to spend countless hours on a few day event like april fools.

RedStar · Apr 22, 2011, 03:36 AM // 03:36

For the rest of this post, we are going to assume that every player has at least a "normal" level, not exceptionally great and not exceptionally bad.

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There is a very easy way to combat monks if you are playing on the luxon side . . . Dom Mesmers. You can pretty much shutdown a monk completely just by maintaining diversion and shame on them.

Well if we are going to go into theories, I can think of 3 outcomes :
-you manage to shutdown the monk
-you manage to shutdown the monk, but he isn't the only one healing and you can't shut down the other on your own
-you manage to shutdown the monk once, and then for the rest of the match ever kurzick that understood what you are doing (because some called you or because they saw it) will come and kill you before you even have the chance to cast diversion.

Of course, there are so many variables like how many monks are there, are you the only one putting this kind of pressure on the monk, what is the rest of your team and what is the rest of their team and how "smart" are they.

When I think of it, I am so glad that FA is random. If people actually made teams, 90% of the kurzick team would be filled with monks and rits. You can try to bring a mix of dom mesmers and necroes, but I don't think that it's going to be much wonder with 4 players protecting the outergates.

I still don't get it why people complain about losing on kurzick side if they aren't bringing a monk or a rit. It's like complaining that HM is too hard for a mesmer using frenzy and wearing starter armor : you have a choice to make it easier, do it, instead of complaining.

Of course this is all just theory talk :
-how many games are there with really more than 3 monks/rits on kurzick side ?
-how many games have more than 1 anti-monk on luxon side ?
-how many games have team that try to organize a startegy ?
Not that much, and this is why someone, on any side could get a 50/50 win/lose. (Well getting 50/50 win/lose on kurzick side is kind of bad...).
FA is random, but, and I have said it before, the map imbalance (rez points and NPCs) aren't and clearly give an advantage to kuzicks.

Sk8tborderx · Apr 22, 2011, 03:56 AM // 03:56

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Originally Posted by Elnino

There is a very easy way to combat monks if you are playing on the luxon side . . . Dom Mesmers. You can pretty much shutdown a monk completely just by maintaining diversion and shame on them.

Since when did diversion and shame completely shut down a monk? For diversion just use a skill that isn't critical, no monk bar relies on all 8 skills all the time. Shame is a minor annoyance at best without proper coordination. Bringing an Ele with enchant removal would accomplish a lot more.

Quote:

Luxon side: Once you're in the green, melees are amazing.
Kurzick side: Stopping people from getting to green is one of the primary objectives, and what stops people from moving? Oh yea, knockdowns.

Just adding stuff to the awesomeness that is melees

Please tell me you are not serious. For the Luxon side melee is pretty much useless until the game is almost won. Kurzick side isn't much better, why run melee for KD when you can run an ele and have ranged KD + snares? Melee is bad in FA, just accept it.

Elnino · Apr 22, 2011, 06:54 AM // 06:54

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Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

For diversion just use a skill that isn't critical

Because that skill will be available the next time diversion hits right?

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Bringing an Ele with enchant removal would accomplish a lot more.

Fast recharge sets and ritualists say hi!

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Melee is bad in FA

Sorry to break this to you but it's not the profession that is bad. Depends if said melee knows how to be useful and actually accomplish something. (which goes for every other profession that makes their way to FA)

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Originally Posted by RedStar

Text

Well, imo, I always though that even if there was more than one healer on the kurzick side, that shutting down just one of them would make killing gunther at least a little bit easier. But this is just my opinion and yes it is still heavily dependant on your team.

FoxBat · Apr 22, 2011, 08:28 AM // 08:28

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Originally Posted by Elnino

Depends if said melee knows how to be useful and actually accomplish something.

Which is about nothing when the gate is held shut by healers spamming behind it.

It's not just melees, bows and spears can suck it too.

Sk8tborderx · Apr 22, 2011, 08:30 AM // 08:30

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Originally Posted by Elnino

Because that skill will be available the next time diversion hits right?

Even if you managed to land a diversion on a monk every 8 seconds, in 30 seconds you would only manage to shut down 3 skills. For that to happen you would need to get half skill recharge every time, be ignored, and it only affects 1 person. Diversion is simply not that great without both good coordination, and good timing.

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Fast recharge sets and ritualists say hi!

Fast recharge effects enchant removal too, so that is a terrible argument. Weapon spells wont keep Gunther alive, they are balanced around the fact that they cannot be removed.

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Sorry to break this to you but it's not the profession that is bad. Depends if said melee knows how to be useful and actually accomplish something. (which goes for every other profession that makes their way to FA)

Good players can be "effective" with boon prot in GvG, it doesn't change the fact that it is bad. Melee is bad in FA due to the objectives and NPC's. Player skill cannot change that.